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ken Oglesby Posts: 20
4/26/2012
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foosball League Rules I don't the rule that you can take points away it can really make the game drag on 2 long. The last day of the season Wed 4-25 the five bar game at Jesters took over an hour to play. I think the scoring should be the same as all the rest of the games.
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admin Administrator Posts: 203
4/27/2012
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adminAdministrator Posts: 203
The "5 Bar War" game is new, so this season was sort of a "trial run" to see how it went. We were aware from the beginning of the potential for it to take some time, though we didn't know if would be a problem in actual practice.
Note, however, that there are some good arguments for the option to remove points:
1) without the option, the game typically is too short.
2) with the game placed where it is (near the end of the 2nd round) it adds a nice dynamic to the match, by allowing a team to try to make up some points if they know they will need them to win.
3) the game itself has quite a bit of interesting strategy with this option in it.
For 2/3 of the season, in practice, we've heard favorable feedback on the game, including the scoring options, and these opinions were nearly unanimous. Only in the last few weeks has the issue of some games running too long came up (probably because only recently have the players really figured out that this is a way to gain points).
So it's a matter of weighing the pros against the cons. (E.g., if a long-running game is a rarity, then it may be fine as is [and even appreciated]. If it happens too often, then clearly it should be curtailed.)
After a complete season's observation, it seems that this should probably be addressed; in the off-season we will consider it and likely make changes. The league coordinators have already discussed possible solutions. Of course, simply removing the scoring option is a possibility (but as mentioned above, the strategies available are generally desirable; it is the possibility of "overplay" that is the real issue). There are many ways to limit this action that would be easy enough "solutions", but they tend to add complexity that, in practice, can present other problems (e.g., giving each player only 3 chances to deduct a opponent's point can easily lead to situations with players arguing over how many they've used already).
Presently, we must finish playoffs, etc., and complete the season at hand, so we'll resolve this issue in the off-season. For the moment, all league players should feel free to offer suggestions either here or in person. But I felt it best to present the items above so that you can keep them in mind when making suggestions. The best answer should also be a simple one 
<em>edited by admin on 4/27/2012</em>
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You've been administered.
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BillyBoy Administrator Posts: 1400
4/27/2012
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Here is a list of possibilities so far. There may be better ones yet. My favorites at the moment are #7 or #8.
1. Don’t allow point deductions
2. Time limit
3. Cannot deduct once you’ve reached 6 points
4. Can only deduct if losing
5. Can only deduct if winning
6. Can only deduct X number of times
7. Cannot deduct player to less than 4 points
8. Cannot deduct player to less than 4 points once he has reached 4 points
<em>edited by BillyBoy on 4/27/2012</em>
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pushkick Posts: 4
5/3/2012
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I sub for the league and didnt see anyone using the take away point rule the first couple times i subbed. I didn't even know that it was a new rule until about the 3rd time I subbed. It seemed to start getting out of hand later in the season and was involved or should i say not involved in the game at Jesters that Ken wrote about. It was excrutiating for the 4 of us that were not in the game and waiting for over an hour to play the next game. I didnt really like it before that and new for sure i hated it after. Definitely need to do something and if eliminating it is not in the cards (dont think Billy wants to do that) then option 2, 6 or 7 should help ameliorate the time problem.
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jivadevoe Posts: 5
5/9/2012
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Our last game of the season also had a 5-bar game that lasted > an hour. In fact, the funny thing was I thought this post was originally ABOUT our game... that's how similar the situation sounded.
In our case, the "take away rule" definitely factored into it. It was simply a matter of tit for tat... one player would get a point, the other would take it away. Literally for a whole hour. Neither team was doing it to get points (or at least our team wasn't, cuz I was the one playing). In fact, that aspect to the strategy hadn't even occurred to me until I saw this thread.
The problem with the game is the issue of sente (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_terms#Gote_and_Sente). The player who serves always has sente, and, if the players are evenly matched, should almost always score a point when he does.
Therefore, given players Alice and Bob, if Alice is the one with the lesser score, the only reasonable strategy is to reduce Bob's score below her own so that when she gets sente again, she can rack the points up to the win.
In other words, for an evenly matched pair of players, you absolutely HAVE to take the lead and keep it. If your opponent should score a point on you that is not answered, then you have to take that point away. "Stealing sente" by stealing the ball after it's been served is much harder than other games IMO since there is less of the field involved in the game.
Of the proposed solutions, IMO, *only* disallowing point deductions altogether is a viable solution.
Time limit = then the strategy will be to ALWAYS keep your opponent at 0 points until the time limit is up, then it becomes as if point deductions are disallowed.
Can't deduct until 6 = always keep your opponent under 6. Not a solution. We didn't even reach 6 until it was almost all over.
Can't deduct if losing = Then whoever gets the first point will win.
Can't deduct if winning = Will make the problem worse.
Deduct only X times = same problem as a time limit
Can't deduct to less than 4 (or once he has reached 4) = Would not have prevented our game from going for an hour. We would have sat at 4 for the hour instead of the 2 or 3 we sat at instead.
I also don't think disallowing point deductions would result in very short games. The simplest defensive strategy in this game is simply wiggling your men back and forth enough to catch the ball as it passes and knock it off the trajectory enough so your opponent can't catch it (obviously without jarring). If you do this, then you get sente, since you then receive the ball automatically. Doing this is surprisingly easy and also can result in the game taking a long time as well. These games would be no faster than say, a FSO game.
<em>edited by jivadevoe on 5/9/2012</em>
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